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Author Topic: The Southlands (formerly known as the Spetifore farm)  (Read 1393 times)
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Tarzan
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« on: October 15, 2009, 03:43:06 PM »

This land is constantly under pressure to be developed into something other than a farm. What will the effects be to the rest of Tsawwassen and the rest of the province? What is the RIGHT thing to do?
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« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2009, 09:04:20 PM »

At today's area plan meeting on agriculture, I was handed a green sheet of paper with the heading, "Save our Tsawwassen," that was signed off as written by Mr. John Meech. It starts off by accusing those who oppose development on the Southlands as being "hostage" takers and says that they are a vocal minority. Can you back those statements up Mr. Meech?

I might also add that your hostile opening tone does nothing to improve the relationship that Mr. Sean Hodgins has worked hard to build between the general public and himself. You do him a disservice. I realize that there may not be any connection between him and your leaflet, but there will undoubtedly be an association made because of how the public generally perceives things (See the topic about perception here: http://comeshowme.com/v-web/smf/index.php?topic=456.msg826#msg826).

The rest of the leaflet (in my opinion) also does nothing but spout off the same old rhetoric without any substance to it. Please give us something to sink our teeth into Mr. Meech. Give us some facts that will convince us that growing houses on excellent farmland is a good idea.

Fact: We currently have approved developments on the go to provide those housing requirements you stated that we need.
Fact: By the time the Southlands gets developed, the demographics may well have changed and all those homes may no longer be required.
Fact: You stated that a 537-acre farm is too small in today's economy. Making it even smaller will help? Do tell how. Both the speakers (Kristi Tatebe and Wendy Holm) at today's meeting told us that it is the speculators that are a major cause of the farmer's woes. It is this constant pressure to develop farmland that is causing the land values to rise and make farming difficult as a result.
Fact: If we had stricter adherence to keeping farmland in the ALR the farmers would stand a better chance of making a living, with the consequence of improving our availability of food to sustain us.

You mentioned that crime and drugs are a result of funding cuts to the arts. Funny, but it seems to me that we have far more issues with crime and drugs in the more densely-populated areas such as Vancouver and Surrey, where they have more facilities for the arts than here! In fact, "affordable housing" seems to be the thing that attracts those people who would commit those petty crimes you speak of. According to speaker Ron Plowright, having more family meals will help in building a stronger and closer community; to which I would add: with subsequent improvement in family values.

You go on to speak about our carbon footprint and state that by your estimate, there will be about 20% of the new residents of the Southlands commuting to work. That would be an additional carbon footprint of more than 20% of our current footprint due to the higher density of the development. Increasing our carbon footprint is a good thing?

Then you go on to tell about how this proposed development will mitigate an already problematic traffic condition. Would it not make more sense to simply not add to the traffic rather than attempt to create mitigating features?

You speak of how the development will implement state-of-the-art on-site infrastructure, but what of the cost to the taxpayer for the off-site infrastructure upgrades that will be needed to support all those new residents?

Your comments about businesses closing in the Town Centre if we don't plan for growth is insulting. Everyone knows that we are currently in a recession and that businesses are failing all over the world!

Fact: There was nothing but farmland around Disneyland in California before the Magic Kingdom was built. The business attracted the people; the people do not necessarily attract the business. Set up shop in the busiest place and offer junk at a high price. See how many customers you get and how long your business lasts! Businesses need to earn their living. There is no automatic RIGHT to it. offer something special and see how people come from afar to shop there. Case in point: People came from Vancouver to shop at Thriftys when it first opened!

Then you close with more rude remarks about the naysayers' "incredible level of ignorance" and "selfishness". Comments such as that are inappropriate and don't help to sway any indecision one might have. My own observation is that those very same people you call ignorant are in fact more aware and informed than most. As for selfishness; what is selfish about looking out for the sustainability of our ecosystem and the welfare of those who will follow us? Why is it so important to you to see this development go ahead, Mr. Meech?

If you could provide some real reasons for supporting your views rather than attacking people, you might have better success at convincing them to see it your way. Your flyer supports saying "NO" to development on the Southlands for all the reasons above. I'm sure the naysayers thank you for covering all the bases!
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« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2009, 05:53:32 PM »

   "At today's area plan meeting on agriculture, I was handed a green sheet of paper
    with the heading, "Save our Tsawwassen," that was signed off as written by Mr.
    John Meech. It starts off by accusing those who oppose development on the Southlands
    as being "hostage" takers and says that they are a vocal minority. Can you back
    those statements up Mr. Meech?

Actually I agree with your desire to avoid confrontation and attacking words on others with different opinions. I thought long and hard about giving my personal opinions about the NOers in our community, and in the end, decided to put some of my feelings in the document because of the horrendous untruths being spread in an organized campaign against this plan by unknown and unidentified people. Personal attacks on Sean Hodgins were also a reason to lash out. He is too much of a gentleman to do that so I put on the gloves and I tried to do it in as gentle a way as possible.

I could have added such statements as:

Why is Tsawwassen known as "Little Rhodesia"?
Why do we have such a lack of diversity in our community?

I took a friend to the event on Saturday and after it was over I asked her what she thought. Her very first reaction was "What a white-faced crowd with lots of white hair or balding heads."

We are a community that is "dying on the vine". Our demographics are ever-increasing with a lack of young families able to afford to live here. Many of our children cannot afford to live in Tsawwassen unless they inherit our homes. We have no post-secondary education anywhere in Delta - the only community of 100,000 in this situation. We fear any form of growth or increase in population. We fear a different "class of people" moving in. we continually focus on the negatives and fail to embrace the good in new ideas. When people say "We don't want Tsawwassen to become like Richmond" ask yourself if this is really "code-words" for racism.

We said NO to the SFPR (I agreed with that). We said NO to Port Expansion. We said NO to hospital cuts (I agreed with that as well). We said NO to putting the power lines underground and then when it became apparent that they were goiing to be put above ground, we backed off and said OKm put them underground. We are not a community of citizens - we use Tsawwassen as a place to sleep and eat in our interlude from work in Richmond or Vancouver. Oh yes, we do like to walk the beaches and dikes, but we rarely get together as fellow citizens to share in each other's ideas  - except when it is to "protect our town" or say NO to new ideas. When did anythuing innTsawwassen get a YES from its citizens?

In looking back to the TDL proposal in 1989, it was probably a good idea that it was rejected. The concept of that development was ridiculous - unsustainable growth around a large-scale golf-course of the entire site. But what we should have followed up with then was a properly well thought-out community plan for what could be done with the land. Instead we went back to our commuting life-style and did nothing to attempt to change our community for the better. We have stagnated over the past two decades in a way that guarantees our failure as a community and the continued dumping of projects and other changes from external forces.

There are numerous gaps:

1. affordable housing
2. unsustainable agriculture
3. an aging community
4. traffic problems
5. lack of post-secondary education
6. one major town centre that doesn't serve our daily needs or provide real shopping support.
7. very poor cultural activities and insufficient sports facilities
8. growing criminal behaviour because our children can't work here or play here.   


      " The rest of the leaflet (in my opinion) also does nothing but spout off
       the same old rhetoric without any substance to it. Please give us something
       to sink our teeth into Mr. Meech. Give us some facts that will convince us
       that growing houses on excellent farmland is a good idea."

In a two-page flyer it is extremely difficult to give you the "facts" that you appartently want to see. All of those facts are carefully detailed in many of the brochures and reports that came out of the Southlands Community Planning Team's work. It is freely available on-line at www.southlandsintransition.ca. But it is not "old rhetoric", Mr. Biedermann. It is the consensus of new ideas generated by 24 of your fellow citizens who worked on your behalf as volunteers to do the work that our town should have been doing over the past two decades. The plan presents a novel approach to retaining and sustaining farming on the Southlands. The farming will become productive and will enhance our community in ways that we can't even yet conceive. People interested in food security will be attracted to our town. People wanting to work locally and live here too will be attracted. We will have a post-secondary institution in place that for the first time will help to address why we have so few young farmers. You want a quiet rural community - that is what the plan will create! You want a place where you can walk and bike to run your errands - that is what the plan will create! You want a place where you can interact with your neighbours on a daily basis (even if its just to say Hello), that is what the plan will create! Now you call this site "Friends & Lovers - Self Help" so maybe that will be a little more intimacy than your neighbours desire, but even your site can benefit from the plan being proposed.

      "Fact: We currently have approved developments on the go to provide
               those housing requirements you stated that we need."

Both approved developments - Toigo's and the one in Point Roberts are associated with golf courses. Where is the Agriculture support. Toigo's development involved an ALR swap that reduced farmland. The Southlands development will enhance farming to a level never before seen even on the best quality farmland in the Lower Mainland.

       "Fact: By the time the Southlands gets developed, the demographics
                may well have changed and all those homes may no longer be required."

Are you just being silly with this one or did you not listen to the presentation of Aging Populations. The only way we can reduce the trend in an Aging Population is to encourage young families to return to our community.

        "Fact: You stated that a 537-acre farm is too small in today's economy.
                 Making it even smaller will help? Do tell how. Both the speakers
                 (Kristi Tatebe and Wendy Holm) at today's meeting told us that
                 it is the speculators that are a major cause of the farmer's woes.
                 It is this constant pressure to develop farmland that is causing
                 the land values to rise and make farming difficult as a result."

Sean Hodgins is not a speculator. He lives on the Southlands. He farms the Southlands. Did you read the full proposal? - I think not. The difficulties in farming sustainably are far more complex than land speculation. The overall economy and the demand for food and the marketing of food all play a  role. Factory Farming has been the only way for existing farmers to survive. We have lost 10,000 acres from the southern part of our province and added 10,000 in the north. We have gone from high-quality food to factory production of cattle, hogs, fowl, and grains, We now grow food for fuel - ethanol - what a totally unsustainable concept.

Yes, the farmland will be smaller. Yes the farmland will be enhanced through liming, fertilizing, and better irrigation. Its productivity will increase by between 2 to 4 times in terms of dollar value. Organic, high-quality foodstuffs rather than hardy potatoes and fodder corn will be grown and people in our community can eat locally-grown food with a new Farmer's Market that will support other farms in the region.

        "Fact: If we had stricter adherence to keeping farmland in the ALR the farmers
                would stand a better chance of making a living, with the consequence of
                improving our availability of food to sustain us."

Ask yourself who moved the high-quality farmland out of the ALR. You will find it has been government - not private business. In fact, the net flow of land into and out of the ALR is significantly IN with respect to private business. The Southlands Community Plan provides a way for our community to acquire the 225 acres to be left for farming and see that it is farmed in-perpetuity protected by we the citizens of Tsawwassen. Can we trust government to provide this protection - NOT ON YOUR LIFE!

        "You mentioned that crime and drugs are a result of funding cuts to the arts."

This  is a mis-statement of my position. What I said was that improved cultural activities and improved sporting facilities for our youth will help to prevent crime from being generated within the community. They provide outlets for our youth to avoid becoming involved in gangs and drug activities which, if you hadn't noticed are already on the rise in our town.
 
       "You go on to speak about our carbon footprint and state that by your
        estimate, there will be about 20% of the new residents of the Southlands
        commuting to work. That would be an additional carbon footprint of more
        than 20% of our current footprint due to the higher density of the
        development. Increasing our carbon footprint is a good thing?"

C'mon, Paul - the issue is not total carbon emissions but emissions per capita. In fact we may find that per capita, the new development will generate so much less CO2 that our total emissions may actually decline despite the increase in population. Members of the existing community will start to ride bikes and walk more to run their errands.

       "Then you go on to tell about how this proposed development will mitigate
        an already problematic traffic condition. Would it not make more sense to
        simply not add to the traffic rather than attempt to create mitigating
        features?"

So exactly what are you saying here - you don't want to mitigate existing traffic problems?

The mitigation occurs in two ways - people in the existing community will drive less and walk and bike more; and people in the new development will to a lesser extent not be commuting through the tunnel. Those sound like good things to me - and they can't come about without the development.

       "You speak of how the development will implement state-of-the-art
        on-site infrastructure, but what of the cost to the taxpayer for
        the off-site infrastructure upgrades that will be needed to support
        all those new residents?"

Any costs for new sewage treatment, water supply, and other infrastructure support will be cost-recovered from the new residents. I don't see how these costs will be transferred to the existing community and in some cases, economy of scale can occur to ensure upgrading and retrofitting of future facilities will actually be cheaper for the existing community.

        "Your comments about businesses closing in the Town Centre if we don't plan
         for growth is insulting. Everyone knows that we are currently in a recession
         and that businesses are failing all over the world!

The closure of the bowling alley, the Theatre, and the high-class restaurants occurred well before the current recession. Businesses are closing and new ones not opening up simply because there is a declining trend in demand with no upside as our community stagnates. We can address the problem in two ways - by allowing some modest growth - 80 units every year for 25 years or by attracting tourists who come to visit because of something we have to offer - accessible beaches, excellent walking and bike trails, unique restaurant and boutiques, and a new arts centre.


        "Fact: There was nothing but farmland around Disneyland in California
               before the Magic Kingdom was built. The business attracted the
               people; the people do not necessarily attract the business. Set
               up shop in the busiest place and offer junk at a high price. See
               how many customers you get and how long your business lasts!
               Businesses need to earn their living. There is no automatic RIGHT
               to it. offer something special and see how people come from afar
               to shop there. Case in point: People came from Vancouver to shop
               at Thriftys when it first opened!"

Well, I don't disagree in principle with your comments above. Disneyland was created by a man with vision who built it and the people came and came and came and eventually the farms were squeezed out by all the supporting businesses that sprung up. But to compare the development being proposed here to Disneyland is a real stretch. I think we will attract folks from afar to come down and share in our space and commerce but never to the extent of what Walt Disney created.


            "Then you close with more rude remarks about the naysayers'
             "incredible level of ignorance" and "selfishness". Comments
             such as that are inappropriate and don't help to sway any
             indecision one might have. My own observation is that those
             very same people you call ignorant are in fact more aware
             and informed than most. As for selfishness; what is selfish
             about looking out for the sustainability of our ecosystem
             and the welfare of those who will follow us? Why is it so
             important to you to see this development go ahead, Mr. Meech?
             If you could provide some real reasons for supporting your
             views rather than attacking people, you might have better
             success at convincing them to see it your way. Your flyer
             supports saying "NO" to development on the Southlands for
             all the reasons above. I'm sure the naysayers thank you for
             covering all the bases!"

Calling Sean Hodgins a greedy developer is equally rude. Sometimes rudeness must be met with rudeness. I consider the statements attacking Sean and the 24 citizens who helped him formulate this plan and the lies and misconceptions being spread to be ignorant and selfish in their own right. Why did people refuse to even read my flyer? Some called me an idiot without even reading the flyer as they crumpled it up and threw in my face. Despite being polite and stating that the flyer was my own personal opinion paid for by myself, one lady told me she wouldn't use my flyer for "toilet-paper". When people close their minds and refuse to even discuss, we have entered a realm far beyond rudeness. When people yell at volunteer speakers and try to take over a well-run event such as occurred on Saturday, once again this is well-beyond simply being rude. My target group was not the small-minded naysayers who have closed their minds to any type of sensible planning for the Southlands. The group who will understand what my flyer was about are the new people - the younger people - who see that their future hinges on a development such as this one. I hope there is enough of us this time and they will stand up and be counted. 
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« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2009, 07:32:00 PM »

Wow!
Welcome to this forum Mr. Meech.

Thanks for taking the time to respond to my questions and comments. You have written a lot and I'm not quite sure of how best to deal with all that information in order not to create a situation of information overload for our readers. I think it might be best to chop each of your responses into a post on its own. That way if anyone wishes to jump in and comment on any of the topics you touched on, it will not become overwhelming.

This forum was set up in order to gather information and to dissect it in order to find the best outcome for our town. Hopefully it will fulfill its mandate.
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« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2009, 09:13:51 PM »

   "At today's area plan meeting on agriculture, I was handed a green sheet of paper
    with the heading, "Save our Tsawwassen," that was signed off as written by Mr.
    John Meech. It starts off by accusing those who oppose development on the Southlands
    as being "hostage" takers and says that they are a vocal minority. Can you back
    those statements up Mr. Meech?

Actually I agree with your desire to avoid confrontation and attacking words on others with different opinions. I thought long and hard about giving my personal opinions about the NOers in our community, and in the end, decided to put some of my feelings in the document because of the horrendous untruths being spread in an organized campaign against this plan by unknown and unidentified people. Personal attacks on Sean Hodgins were also a reason to lash out. He is too much of a gentleman to do that so I put on the gloves and I tried to do it in as gentle a way as possible.

I can understand your plight and I can respect that. Putting on the gloves and fighting back "gently" is difficult to do without offending people and drawing lines in the sand which just polarizes people more. As you said, Sean is a gentleman and making people angry at him is not something you want to do. Unfortunately, you have just made yourself his spokesperson with your flyer. I'm also a bit concerned about your use of the words "hostage" and "Minority", to which you did not respond either with a retraction or explanation in your defense for using those words. Having the longest public hearing in history hardly constitutes a minority in my opinion. It would seem to me that there was an overwhelming majority of people who spoke out and forced our elected officials to take heed.
Quote
I could have added such statements as:

Why is Tsawwassen known as "Little Rhodesia"?
Why do we have such a lack of diversity in our community?
I've never heard Tsawwassen referred to as Little Rhodesia. What is that supposed to mean?
As for the lack of diversity; that is a complicated question and deserves its own thread. Perhaps that could be discussed in the thread on our vision for the Town Centre.
Quote
I took a friend to the event on Saturday and after it was over I asked her what she thought. Her very first reaction was "What a white-faced crowd with lots of white hair or balding heads."

We are a community that is "dying on the vine". Our demographics are ever-increasing with a lack of young families able to afford to live here. Many of our children cannot afford to live in Tsawwassen unless they inherit our homes. We have no post-secondary education anywhere in Delta - the only community of 100,000 in this situation. We fear any form of growth or increase in population. We fear a different "class of people" moving in. we continually focus on the negatives and fail to embrace the good in new ideas. When people say "We don't want Tsawwassen to become like Richmond" ask yourself if this is really "code-words" for racism.
My guess is that, unfortunately, our younger members are all pre-occupied with putting bread on the table and other such immediate needs. It seems it is the older crowd that has to pull the weight of taking responsibility for their good and welfare.

Mr. Meech, I hate to have to jab you, but I'm looking beyond our immediate borders on this issue. Let's not get narrow-minded and too focused by blinders. Moving people from one area to another does not help the global situation. Besides; if all Tsawwassen has left in a few years is geriatrics, then think about how affordable housing will become when all us old folks move into the next realm, leaving behind all those empty homes for our youth to move into! I'm all for GOOD new ideas; just don't try convincing me that a bad idea is good... prove it to me.

As for racism: I have never heard of such a thing or seen any indication of that in any discussion I have ever had. Richmond was primarily farms and is now an extension of Vancouver. Good farmland was taken away and housing was put on it instead. All that housing only increases our need for food production, yet at the same time the productive land has been taken out of food production! To me that is not progress. That's plain stupidity. I've read many times that weed killers work by forcing the weed to grow faster than it can sustain itself. That's what we are doing when we allow unrestricted growth in human population; we're going to kill ourselves! What we really need to do is become a model society of true sustainability. Set a fixed limit on population and through natural processes everything will balance out on its own.
Quote
We said NO to the SFPR (I agreed with that). We said NO to Port Expansion. We said NO to hospital cuts (I agreed with that as well). We said NO to putting the power lines underground and then when it became apparent that they were goiing to be put above ground, we backed off and said OKm put them underground. We are not a community of citizens - we use Tsawwassen as a place to sleep and eat in our interlude from work in Richmond or Vancouver. Oh yes, we do like to walk the beaches and dikes, but we rarely get together as fellow citizens to share in each other's ideas  - except when it is to "protect our town" or say NO to new ideas. When did anythuing innTsawwassen get a YES from its citizens?
Correction... The issue of buried power lines is apples and oranges. In the first instance the lines were to be buried using a cut-and-cover method with NO shielding from the generated EMF's. The second method was to use Horizontal Directional Drilling (HDD) which leaves a shielding pipe in the ground for the wires to run in; and I'm not certain of this, but I believe it would be deeper in the ground. If anyone from the power lines group can clarify this it would be appreciated.

OK, so your argument is that we should say "yes" to bad things just to balance things out?

How do you know that we DON'T get together and share ideas? Isn't that what we've been doing with our letters to the editor all these years?
Quote
In looking back to the TDL proposal in 1989, it was probably a good idea that it was rejected. The concept of that development was ridiculous - unsustainable growth around a large-scale golf-course of the entire site. But what we should have followed up with then was a properly well thought-out community plan for what could be done with the land. Instead we went back to our commuting life-style and did nothing to attempt to change our community for the better. We have stagnated over the past two decades in a way that guarantees our failure as a community and the continued dumping of projects and other changes from external forces.
Can you not grasp the idea that farmland should be kept as farmland? Just because a developer bought it does not mean it needs to be developed! This is the kind of thinking that destroys us like the unwanted weeds. Why failure? Because it isn't your vision? Seems to me a lot of people LIKE this kind of "failure"; that's why they came here and that's why they are fighting to preserve it. As a matter of fact, I just recently read that Gibsons BC just won some kind of award for holding back development of the foreshore lands. If I can find the article I will link to it. My vision is to win that award here too. Then perhaps other cities will follow and we can slowly educate the entire world of what sustainability really means.

As for the dumping of unwanted projects:How do you relate growth to preventing that?


OK... I think that's enough for one thread and its getting late. To be continued...
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« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2009, 12:01:08 AM »

http://www.theprovince.com/life/fashion-beauty/Gibsons+called+most+livable+community+given+endorsed+award/2096964/story.html

See? Small towns CAN be a nice place to live. No need for lots of people.
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« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2009, 11:45:27 AM »

   
Actually I agree with your desire to avoid confrontation and attacking words on others with different opinions. I thought long and hard about giving my personal opinions about the NOers in our community, and in the end, decided to put some of my feelings in the document because of the horrendous untruths being spread in an organized campaign against this plan by unknown and unidentified people. Personal attacks on Sean Hodgins were also a reason to lash out. He is too much of a gentleman to do that so I put on the gloves and I tried to do it in as gentle a way as possible.


I should have included in my earlier post:
I don't know who the people behind the other campaigns you speak of are, but I am freely admitting that I am one of those you call a NO-SAYER. I have never intended (nor do I intend) to spread lies or deception. I believe I have an open mind and am fully prepared to change my view if I am proven wrong.
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« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2009, 11:58:35 AM »

   
 It is the consensus of new ideas generated by 24 of your fellow citizens who worked on your behalf as volunteers to do the work that our town should have been doing over the past two decades. The plan presents a novel approach to retaining and sustaining farming on the Southlands. The farming will become productive and will enhance our community in ways that we can't even yet conceive. People interested in food security will be attracted to our town. People wanting to work locally and live here too will be attracted. We will have a post-secondary institution in place that for the first time will help to address why we have so few young farmers. You want a quiet rural community - that is what the plan will create! You want a place where you can walk and bike to run your errands - that is what the plan will create! You want a place where you can interact with your neighbours on a daily basis (even if its just to say Hello), that is what the plan will create!


I think it is great that my fellow citizens took the time to come up with such a lovely plan. It is a good plan! I don't dispute the concept itself. The Century Group own lots of land. Why not use those concepts in places that are not prime farmland? Farmland is not  a renewable resource. We cannot just grow farmland. How can anyone justify taking food out of the mouths of babes by removing viable farmland from production? Window boxes and small garden patches can be placed anywhere. It only seems like common sense to me that existing farmland should be protected at all costs.
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Tarzan
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« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2009, 12:11:18 PM »

   
Both approved developments - Toigo's and the one in Point Roberts are associated with golf courses. Where is the Agriculture support. Toigo's development involved an ALR swap that reduced farmland. The Southlands development will enhance farming to a level never before seen even on the best quality farmland in the Lower Mainland.


Ummm... I need to jab you again. I'm not even attempting to compare the projects! I'm simply stating that there is a supply of those houses you said we so desperately need already in the works! Let's not create confusion by bringing in irrelevant ideas.

If we cut right to the bone; you are agreeing with me that Century Group are attempting to put housing on good farmland.
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« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2009, 12:23:55 PM »


Are you just being silly with this one or did you not listen to the presentation of Aging Populations. The only way we can reduce the trend in an Aging Population is to encourage young families to return to our community.


Although I can at times be silly, I am dead serious here. The Baby Boomers are aging! That is a given and there is nothing short of killing them that will stop that. As I have already stated earlier, moving people around will not change the world's demographics.
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« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2009, 12:59:05 PM »

Please note there is a quote within a quote below.

Quote from: Tarzan
        "Fact: You stated that a 537-acre farm is too small in today's economy.
                 Making it even smaller will help? Do tell how. Both the speakers
                 (Kristi Tatebe and Wendy Holm) at today's meeting told us that
                 it is the speculators that are a major cause of the farmer's woes.
                 It is this constant pressure to develop farmland that is causing
                 the land values to rise and make farming difficult as a result."

Sean Hodgins is not a speculator.


From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_estate_development

Real estate development is a multifaceted business, encompassing activities that range from the renovation and re-lease of existing buildings to the purchase of raw land and the sale of improved parcels to others. Developers are the coordinators of the activities, converting ideas on paper into real property. They create, imagine, fund, control and orchestrate the process of development from the beginning to end. Developers usually take the greatest risk in the creation or renovation of real estate—and receive the greatest rewards. Typically, developers purchase a tract of land, determine the marketing of the property, develop the building program and design, obtain the necessary public approval and financing, build the structure, and lease, manage, and ultimately sell it. Developers work with many different counterparts along each step of this process, including architects, city planners, engineers, surveyors, inspectors, contractors, leasing agents and more.

Land development

Purchasing unused land for a potential development is sometimes called speculative development.
Subdivision of land is the principal mechanism by which communities are developed. Technically, subdivision describes the legal and physical steps a developer must take to convert raw land into developed land. Subdivision is a vital part of a community's growth, determining its appearance, the mix of its land uses, and its infrastructure, including roads, drainage systems, water, sewerage, and public utilities.
In general, land development is the riskiest but most profitable technique as it is so dependent on the public sector for approvals and infrastructure and because it involves a long investment period with no positive cash flow.

(MY HIGHLIGHTING)

How can you state that he is not a speculator? Let's be honest here.
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« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2009, 01:06:33 PM »

   
Yes, the farmland will be smaller. Yes the farmland will be enhanced through liming, fertilizing, and better irrigation. Its productivity will increase by between 2 to 4 times in terms of dollar value. Organic, high-quality foodstuffs rather than hardy potatoes and fodder corn will be grown and people in our community can eat locally-grown food with a new Farmer's Market that will support other farms in the region.


So can you explain WHY one cannot do all this with the entire parcel of land? What contribution to the production of food do the housing units have?
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« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2009, 01:33:04 PM »

Nested quotes again:

   
Quote from: Tarzan
        "Fact: If we had stricter adherence to keeping farmland in the ALR the farmers
                would stand a better chance of making a living, with the consequence of
                improving our availability of food to sustain us."
Ask yourself who moved the high-quality farmland out of the ALR. You will find it has been government - not private business. In fact, the net flow of land into and out of the ALR is significantly IN with respect to private business. The Southlands Community Plan provides a way for our community to acquire the 225 acres to be left for farming and see that it is farmed in-perpetuity protected by we the citizens of Tsawwassen. Can we trust government to provide this protection - NOT ON YOUR LIFE!


Yes, good question: How did the land get removed from the ALR after the Land Commission unanimously rejected the application to have it removed? http://www.southlandsinthealr.ca/sites/southlandsinthealr.ca/files/Southlands%20ALC%20Decision%20April%201980.pdf

Wendy Holm told us at this last meeting that it was removed at a closed-door meeting in just half an hour!
Wouldn't you agree that the honourable thing to do in this case is to put it back? ALL OF IT, not just a portion.

A large part of that land has already been sold! Granted, it went to the GVRD for parkland, but the fact is that some profit has been realized and this portion is no longer able to be put back into productive farmland. And don't tell me it was land that was not farmable because it was marshland. Brunswick point is all reclaimed land and has been a productive farm for years. As is a lot of Holland.
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« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2009, 01:45:03 PM »

Nested quotes again:

 
Quote from: Tarzan
        "You mentioned that crime and drugs are a result of funding cuts to the arts."

This  is a mis-statement of my position. What I said was that improved cultural activities and improved sporting facilities for our youth will help to prevent crime from being generated within the community. They provide outlets for our youth to avoid becoming involved in gangs and drug activities which, if you hadn't noticed are already on the rise in our town.


My apologies on that one. I was getting lazy and was attempting to abbreviate my typing. You are absolutely correct.

My position is that those things can be achieved by means other than trading off for something that could be equally bad or even worse!
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« Reply #14 on: October 26, 2009, 02:03:39 PM »

Nested quotes again:

   
Quote from: Tarzan
       "You go on to speak about our carbon footprint and state that by your
        estimate, there will be about 20% of the new residents of the Southlands
        commuting to work. That would be an additional carbon footprint of more
        than 20% of our current footprint due to the higher density of the
        development. Increasing our carbon footprint is a good thing?"

C'mon, Paul - the issue is not total carbon emissions but emissions per capita. In fact we may find that per capita, the new development will generate so much less CO2 that our total emissions may actually decline despite the increase in population. Members of the existing community will start to ride bikes and walk more to run their errands.


Sorry, but lets not start with the smoke and mirrors. A teaspoon full of rat poison is still a teaspoon of rat poison no matter how many people you divide it amongst!

If you really believe the rest of what you wrote in the quote above, then you need another jab to wake yourself up. You're in dreamland my friend. Remember talking about all those old people? I can just see them all walking miles and riding bikes in the rain simply because we have a new development in Tsawwassen!
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Is reality just a figment of your imagination?
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